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Post by Diogenes on Oct 27, 2001 7:32:13 GMT -5
I was waiting in London last Monday for my flight out, reading a newspaper, and came across an interesting article, interesting especially in light of a conversation I had just had the day before with a very good English friend who I had stayed with for a few days, and interesting in light of many similar points to the one she had been making regarding how Europeans did not take religion nearly as seriously as people in the US did.
The article was about how Churches in England, after years of declining membership, were suddenly finding themselves full again after the WTC attack. Apparently, in this time of international uncertainty, England was turning out to not be so anti-religion after all.
Thoughts? Comments?
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MasterD_Evil
Peasant
The things we do to the people that we love...
Posts: 50
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Post by MasterD_Evil on Oct 27, 2001 8:33:35 GMT -5
Flame!! In all seriousness, I believe there's still a large religious group here, and we got our share of fanatics, but I still (wish?) to believe Europe is less bad than America. See, in the US the president says "God bless America." This is imho a clear sign that people actually consider that normal... If our prime minister would dare say that he'd forced to leave probably... However in "bad" times (war, etc.) many people feel the need for comfort and support, thus God. Personally I am religious in my own way and that didn't change since the war... I know I'm not as good at this as other Great Ones (LB, Diogenes, Joffar, Sil, ...) but I'm just ending with something I heard a long while ago. "Religions (in the sense of church) are just for people without a spine who are afraid of the world." That's not the exact line, just the idea the guy wanted to bring... (not saying I agree or disagree either
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Post by Diogenes on Oct 27, 2001 8:58:21 GMT -5
However in "bad" times (war, etc.) many people feel the need for comfort and support, thus God. Personally I am religious in my own way and that didn't change since the war... "Religions (in the sense of church) are just for people without a spine who are afraid of the world." Well, that's one way to look at it. <br> Another is that serious events like the recent ones lead people away from their normal, relatively petty routines, and cause them to do serious soul searching into what is really important in life. <br> The province of such soul searching definitely overlaps with the subject matter of religion. For some, it leads to greater participation in organized religion. For others, it leads to more personal/private unorganized "religion." I disagree with the idea that such soul searching necessarily means that such people are "spineless" or somehow weaker than non-religious people.
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MasterD_Evil
Peasant
The things we do to the people that we love...
Posts: 50
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Post by MasterD_Evil on Oct 27, 2001 9:01:46 GMT -5
Of course your point is also valid. But for me going to the church is not soul searching, it's a waste of time for me. However people who still value the church a lot are of course entitled to go there if it helps them... As long as they don't force me to go with em
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Post by Diogenes on Oct 27, 2001 9:06:13 GMT -5
Of course your point is also valid. But for me going to the church is not soul searching, it's a waste of time for me. However people who still value the church a lot are of course entitled to go there if it helps them... As long as they don't force me to go with em I have no problem with what you just said, MDE. Different things work for different people. Neither is necessarily better than the other. For myself, I do not belong to any organized religion. I take the unorganized religious/spiritual approach.
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MasterD_Evil
Peasant
The things we do to the people that we love...
Posts: 50
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Post by MasterD_Evil on Oct 27, 2001 9:16:17 GMT -5
Same for me
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Post by Solaufein_Xiltyn on Oct 27, 2001 13:34:46 GMT -5
During a great time of crisis people do foolish things this is no exception
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Post by Spelman on Oct 28, 2001 3:46:45 GMT -5
Going to church is foolish? Why?
In the first place, I think that people flocking to churches and such at the time of crisis is normal. People swear that they are comfortable in their atheism, but the truth of the matter is that there are *very* few atheists in foxholes or trenches. It's natural. My favorite story of this nature is about the guy in Viet Nam (durting the conflict in the 60's) who wore the necklace with the cross, star of David, Ankh, horn, totem, phalactery, buddha, talisman and rabbit's foot. When asked what he was doing, he answered that, in his current position, he could not afford to offend anyone. There is also an old song that says "I say there ain't no heaven, and I pray there ain't no hell." Crisis is a time when people come to recognize their own mortality...and that's scary as he||. I would say that spiritual reflection is natural at that time. It's a pity that it takes such situations for people to pay attention to that side of themselves.
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Post by Joffar on Oct 28, 2001 10:00:26 GMT -5
well, one might argue that due to the stress some people have been going through the past months that they don't want to live in fear again, and what's easier then listening to someone else who is saying something that he claims to be absolute?(works both ways btw)
and i don't think europe is anti-religious, it's just more critical of them
P.S.: i have come to haunt you all!!
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Post by Kothoses the Tyrant on Oct 28, 2001 16:53:13 GMT -5
If in Dark times something helps you feel better without doing you any harm, whats wrong in activly seeking it out.
Religion to some is more than just a source of comfort its a way of life, personally I am non commital, but some people are devout to one religion or another and while we may disagree with their view points we should always respect them. If going to church and praying helps you feel a little more at ease with the world, then that is not foolish at all.
However back to the point, Religion in Europe is more deep rooted than the US and Christianity especially here has failed to move with the times, and as such the younger generation have not been attracted to the church, the catch 22 here is that if young people are not attracted then the churches wont advance and will attract even less people.
Religion in Europe should take a leaf out of the U.S. Style, but the U.S. Style religion needs to remember where its roots are and not get so caught up in becomeing attractive, that it loses the ties that keep it as religion, and not as just another form of entertainment.
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Post by Silmarillion on Oct 28, 2001 17:28:08 GMT -5
Going to church is foolish? Why? In the first place, I think that people flocking to churches and such at the time of crisis is normal. People swear that they are comfortable in their atheism, but the truth of the matter is that there are *very* few atheists in foxholes or trenches. It's natural. My favorite story of this nature is about the guy in Viet Nam (durting the conflict in the 60's) who wore the necklace with the cross, star of David, Ankh, horn, totem, phalactery, buddha, talisman and rabbit's foot. When asked what he was doing, he answered that, in his current position, he could not afford to offend anyone. There is also an old song that says "I say there ain't no heaven, and I pray there ain't no hell." Crisis is a time when people come to recognize their own mortality...and that's scary as he||. I would say that spiritual reflection is natural at that time. It's a pity that it takes such situations for people to pay attention to that side of themselves. All that does is prove that most people's "faith" is actually FEAR. Pretty hypocritical if you ask me. I stand strong in my beliefs (or lack thereof)....even when I faced death, a few times, not once did I "pray" to any god just in case. I don't 'fear' hell because I don't believe in one. There is no doubt in my mind. But, I guess I can understand if people have doubts why they would go to a church after something like the 11th.
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Post by Spelman on Oct 28, 2001 17:53:04 GMT -5
There are many in the USA that still admire the traditional, and somehow enjoy the advances of modern times as well. I could go into a diatrab of God not being held by the simple conceptual capabilities of humankind, but I'd rather not get flamed. The major dangers in the American approach (and, yes I am including South America, Canada, et al) is that it lends itself to the possibility of cultism and cruelty, simply *because* it is so attractive to particular people. People take on an almost "us vs them" mentality, which is not what the founders of the religions themselves were all about.
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Post by Nachtrafe-Tyrant Jr on Oct 28, 2001 23:46:48 GMT -5
During a great time of crisis people do foolish things this is no exception So, let me get this straight. Searching for emotional support in a time of crisis is foolish? Feeling a need for affirmation of and with your fellow man after horror is foolish? Seeking something that will bring you hope or comfort is foolish? IMO denigrating people who are trying to express common belief after a profound, life changing, world changing event is what is foolish. Mocking them and insulting their beliefs is foolish. Anything that brings people solace at times like this is hardly foolish.
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Post by Nachtrafe-Tyrant Jr on Oct 28, 2001 23:58:19 GMT -5
Religion in Europe should take a leaf out of the U.S. Style, but the U.S. Style religion needs to remember where its roots are and not get so caught up in becomeing attractive, that it loses the ties that keep it as religion, and not as just another form of entertainment. There's a caveat to this though. Unlike most European contries, who were founded by conquerers(who were under the thumb of the Church), the US was founded by religious refugees. People who wanted freedom to worship in whatever way they wanted, free from the tyranny of that same Church. People came to America seeking freedom of religion. Europe was crushed under its bootheel more than once. So its no wonder that Europeans tend to be more critical of it. That's why religion is such an integral part of US life. Sort of like patriotism. We get berated for our 'flag waving jingoism', and yet, America was built on the blood of those very flag wavers. If it hadn't been for the A)Extremely Religious and B)Extremely Patriotic men and women who fought off(at one time or another) all of Europe, the US wouldn't even exist, at least not in its current form. The name of God is in our Motto, our Pledge, our Anthem, and on our Money. And despite what left wing types continually whine about, it belongs there. *Tosses 2 pennies on the table*
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Post by Melusine on Oct 29, 2001 3:59:23 GMT -5
So, let me get this straight. Searching for emotional support in a time of crisis is foolish? Feeling a need for affirmation of and with your fellow man after horror is foolish? Seeking something that will bring you hope or comfort is foolish? IMO denigrating people who are trying to express common belief after a profound, life changing, world changing event is what is foolish. Mocking them and insulting their beliefs is foolish. Anything that brings people solace at times like this is hardly foolish. Hear, hear!! A great post, Jim! (I'm also saying this because I wanted to hide that I don't agree with your next post ) j/k, this needed to be said - I can believe how irreverent some people are towards others. If someone can find solace in faith after such horrific evetns, and maybe find the strength to move on again, how can you possibly think them foolish? Even if you don't agree with the methods, you have got to admit that the desired result is obtained. I also don't think that people go to church again out of some sort of hypocritical fear - why are you so quick to condemn them like that? There are so many other possibilities... Maybe they recognised just how deeply they were shocked by the events, and realised that they couldn't deal with it alone. To them, the Church might have looked like the best place to share their emotions and meet like-minded people. Or maybe they have been religious for years, and prayed devoutly, but just didn't go to church for whatever reason. After the disaster, they may have suddenly felt 'a spark' again, and went to church to be able to pray together, or to help others. If I may speak for Nacht, both he and I are not Christians, but that doesn't mean we can't see the good things that religion can do for people...
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