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Post by Diogenes on Oct 30, 2001 13:21:26 GMT -5
I just hope that we dont all get so caught up in a quest for justice over those that died, that we cant feel sadness at innocent lives that have, and will be, lost. In the quest for justice, just remember not to lose touch with what keeps you human, dont sell your souls to buy vengance for what has been lost. Very well said, Fonz. Unfortunately, what you warn against seems to be exactly what has happened in the minds of some of us, including perhaps our President. It is as if some feel that the deaths of the innocents at the WTC justifies the killing of even more innocents. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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Post by Diogenes on Oct 30, 2001 13:35:48 GMT -5
Several facts: 1) war is hell 2) innocent people die 3) if you don't use overwhelming force and finish the war as quickly as possible, then you prolong the agony 4) our bombs are SIGNIFICANTLY "smarter" than they were ten years ago. Only about 30% in the gulf war were "smart".. while in this war 80% are smart. We also now have GPS guided bombs, making even the dumb ones pretty smart. 5) Notwithstanding the above, bombs do go astray and miss their targets. Unfortunately, the Taliban like to put military targets next to hospitals, mosques, childrens centers, etc..so the "misses" usually end up killing non-combatants. 6) don't believe everything you read yes, I agree about not believing everything you read, including our military's propaganda about 80% smart bombs (If that is what they are claiming, I don't know, just going by what you have said) In the gulf war, they led everyone to believe that the majority of the ordnance dropped was "smart", when the truth came out later that only 7% really was. (Not sure where you got the 30 % figure from, Pedro, iirc it was only 7%) . As for blaming the people themselves for being bombed by being next to "legitimate military targets", as was done constantly in the Gulf War, that is simply whitewashing of what an all out air campaign really means, refusing to face the reality or take responsibility for what the method of war we have chosen to wage really means. Where the hell are the people supposed to go? Are they to abandon their occupations, homes, and lives, and live on eating dirt in the wilderness? For how the hell long? I imagine our tune about this would be very different if we were the targets of an overwhelming and sustained air campaign. I doubt very much we would then take the attitude of "well, its all our fault for being bombed, after all, we could go live on dirt for months in the desert." Yes, war is indeed Hell. That is exactly the reason why we should never rush into it without exhausting other options first.
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Post by Diogenes on Oct 30, 2001 13:38:54 GMT -5
So before you begin wailing about Afghani innocents, remember the US innocents. * How about being concerned about all of the innocents, US and Afghani alike?
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Lord Bane
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Post by Lord Bane on Oct 30, 2001 14:20:17 GMT -5
Exactly Dio! Finally a colleague pinko to join my ranks against the foul and wretched rightish demons Elric and Pedro ;D Welcome aboard D-man
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Post by Diogenes on Oct 30, 2001 14:34:04 GMT -5
Exactly Dio! Finally a colleague pinko to join my ranks against the foul and wretched rightish demons Elric and Pedro ;D Welcome aboard D-man LOL. Well, despite Belecthor's accusations, I don't consider myself a "pinko," but thanks for the welcome at least ;-)
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Post by Nachtrafe-Tyrant Jr on Oct 30, 2001 14:38:53 GMT -5
How about being concerned about all of the innocents, US and Afghani alike? I *AM* concerned for all of the innocents. It just seems to me that, in people's zealotry to cry foul about the 'Poor Afghani Peoples' they forget the innocents already dead and lying under a few million pounds of rubble. And, since I dont think I officially said it. WB Dio!
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Lord Bane
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Post by Lord Bane on Oct 30, 2001 14:47:02 GMT -5
LOL. Well, despite Belecthor's accusations, I don't consider myself a "pinko," but thanks for the welcome at least ;-) Heh, don't worry about it, Dio, it's nothing personal Well, not against you anyway, perhaps a wee bit against Elric though
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Post by Kothoses the Tyrant on Oct 30, 2001 14:49:59 GMT -5
Yes, war is indeed Hell. That is exactly the reason why we should never rush into it without exhausting other options first. <br> Unfortunatly Diplomatic pressure doesnt work with people who only respond to voilence. In the end after the strikes on the WTC came, this was the only option left, try to remember that the WTC attacks were not the first act of terrorism commited, they were simply the straw that broke the camels back, and now we are at war, there is no such thing as an acceptable loss, merely ones which can be written of as an unfortunate side effect by the leadership .
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Post by pedro2112 on Oct 30, 2001 20:58:15 GMT -5
Let me put this a simply as I can. I don't "enjoy" the fact that innocent people have to be killed. But as dio stated, this is war. THE ONLY thing we have to do is win. All other objectives are secondary until we win. Because if we don't win, then the results will be ten times worse around the world, and the amount of non combatants killed in afghanistan will be miniscule compared to the death and destruction that will be brought to bear on the West and the US. Let's not kid ourselves with all this bullshit about how we aren't targeting civillians. Anyone who isn't a palpable idiot knows that we aren't. But the fact of the matter is that war is war, and the faster we win, the sooner the killings can stop.
This is not another foolish military adventure (vietnam, greneda, panama, kosovo) where other alternatives to war could have been sought out; this is a war that was waged upon us that we have to win in order to survive. Let's stop lolly gagging around and put an end to it. If it means a lot of american soldiers will be at risk, so be it. We cannot win by bombing alone.
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Post by ElricMorlockin on Oct 31, 2001 10:21:12 GMT -5
Lord Bane....you stay the hell away from Dio! He's one of those "borderline" guys that cant decide if he likes the freedoms of capitalism or the "equality" of Socialism better yet! LOL! Btw.... theres only two things that I like pink, one of them is my steak the other.... well we know what the other is.... ;D
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Post by Billy_Yank on Oct 31, 2001 19:48:46 GMT -5
Everyone already knows where I come down in this debate. As a crusty old Infantry First Sergeant once said to me: "A fair fight is one where all my boys come back alive."
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Post by Nachtrafe-Tyrant Jr on Nov 1, 2001 3:34:25 GMT -5
Billy...A wise man, that Sargeant.
One of my favorite quotes is by Patton. A buddy has it in his sig.
"War isn't about dying for your country. Its about making sure the other bastard dies for his!"
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Lord Bane
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Post by Lord Bane on Nov 1, 2001 4:05:29 GMT -5
Hmm, in all fairness, that's an awful quote there Nachtrafe.
Afghans are dying, for their country I suppose since it's a US-Afghanistan war, but they aren't defending their country, or trying to have Americans die in their place. They're just trying to stay alive, trying to imagine how they'll survive even more years of strife and bloodshed after having had the relative peace and safety of the Taliban for half a decade.
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Post by Nachtrafe-Tyrant Jr on Nov 1, 2001 4:29:48 GMT -5
Hmm, in all fairness, that's an awful quote there Nachtrafe. Afghans are dying, for their country I suppose since it's a US-Afghanistan war, but they aren't defending their country, or trying to have Americans die in their place. They're just trying to stay alive, trying to imagine how they'll survive even more years of strife and bloodshed after having had the relative peace and safety of the Taliban for half a decade. LB...First, please dont read things into my posts that obviously aren't there. That quote was by General George Patton. A soldier. Obviously talking to and about soldiers. Second...'peace and safety of the Taliban for half a decade'?? Ummm...I'm sorry...Perhaps its my trick eye and I misread you? Peace?? And Safety?? From WHOM?? The Taliban have done nothing but terrorize and repress their own citizens, make the poorest economy on the planet even poorer, and build up an international opium trade on the backs of the citizens that they are giving 'peace' and 'safety' to. And "how they'll survive even more years of strife and bloodshed"?? The second largest concern of the cooalition is what happens after. Colin Powell is working with an international team of his own hammering out a solution for what happens after the Taliban is removed. And its a pretty good plan. What it amounts to is essentially a congress of representatives of the major tribes in Afghanistan, elected from within those tribes, forming a council government. And they will be assisted economicaly, and, if need be, militarily, by the cooalition. Sounds like a pretty good recipe for true peace and safety, dont you think? Ummm...BTW LB...I know we haven't interacted much, so I dont really know exactly what your political leanings are, but I'm beginning to infer. So DUDE!! What the hell are you smoking? You talk as though the Taliban are some sort of love bunny squad and the cooalition are mean evil were-wolves. If that is truly your opinion, and I sincerely hope it isn't, but if it is, you are one seriously deluded young man.
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Lord Bane
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Post by Lord Bane on Nov 1, 2001 4:45:33 GMT -5
LOL! Nachtrafe, problem with this quote is that Patton might intend it to apply to soldiers only, the truth is that it isn't restricted to them, which is why I hate it. Second, read all my words, please. I didn't put the "relative" there without a reason you know. Perhaps you're not aware of this, but when the Taliban came in charge of Afghanistan 5 years ago, they were cheered by the international community. Cheered for finally ending a 2 decade (!) long civil war, for bringing order to the country. Of course they aren't the best government Afghanistan could have (duh), but if you believe for one second that the largest part of the Afghani would prefer the horrible clanwar they were in instead of the Taliban, you're the deluded one, not me. And yes, more years of violence and bloodshed. I'm relieved to hear that it's getting accepted that the Taliban *has* to have a say in the new-to-form government, cause otherwise peace isn't possible. Actually, I don't believe there'll ever be a lasting peace in that area (Afghanistan-Pakistan-India, which has more or less similar problems as Israel and the Balkan), but that's just my own personal pessimism, I suppose. Oh, just read your post again. "The second largest concern" ? Jeeks! I hope that isn't true, although there is little reason to doubt it is. And Nachtrafe, a final note, you make a very nice mental image, but you have it turned upsidedown. I'm just trying to give some nuance to this situation, but I could have guessed this is close to impossible.
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