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Post by Maigan on Oct 30, 2001 7:07:08 GMT -5
Post feminism. What are the areas where women can and cannot enter. Do we have any kind of equality (still)!
What do you think?
I think that women still carry too much of the load with kids. I think it still falls to men to work while mum stays home and not the other way around. I think that women still fix the toilet seat and change the toilet roll and men still put out the garbage.
I also think that some of the traditional roles matter and some don't. Kids is the biggie here. The rest seem to be at home. Are they? I'm now a bit old to know how young women and men feel. But I would like to know.
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Blade
Slave
Slice and Dice
Posts: 9
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Post by Blade on Oct 30, 2001 7:57:55 GMT -5
Post feminism. What are the areas where women can and cannot enter. Do we have any kind of equality (still)! Seems they can't enter the men's room at a sporting event here Ok, wife, 2 kids (now teenagers). I'm teaching one (kid, not wife, she's unteachable ) to drive, help both with homework, share laundry and cleaning duties, my wife yells at them (she's also better with the hugs and kisses ) She did stop work when they were infants but that was as much economics as anything. One of us HAD to be home, I could earn more working than she (and that's an in-equality because for what she does she should earn more than me!) She went back to work when she could. Our toilet seats are fine, I'm the only who's able to put on a roll of toilet paper (at least the right way), and I always take out the garbage, pick up the dog droppings, mow the lawn, care for the garden, and do most of the cooking (by choice, I love to cook!) Well, I'm not exactly young but I'd be interested in hearing from that set as well. Many of the couples we know are a bit younger than us and seem to follow a more tradional male/female labor split, wife=kids/house cleaning; husband=yard/house maintenance, even when both spouses work full time.
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Post by ElricMorlockin on Oct 30, 2001 8:31:30 GMT -5
Maigan it failed because the leadership of the movement failed Instead of sticking with the issues that got them there (Ie. In the spotlight) they decided to take the lobbyist/special interest approach (at least in the USA). The end result is that more women disdain organizations such as NOW than they respect what they are doing. The notion of "we want equal rights" has become "we want special rights" etc..etc..etc.. If the truth be known, I think that the opportunities that lay before womens feet (again in the USA) are unparalleled in the history of the planet, yet the "femi-nazi" leadership decides to still behave like a "squeeky wheel". I dont think that because there was a womens movement, that traditional roles have/will change at all. Face it ladies, in nine out of ten circumstances the woman is a better care giver to the children! Now, I know that we'll hear from a couple of the "sensitive new age guy types", but thats not to say that men are terrible care givers, it only says that women are better at it! Its simple mother nature IMO, look at other animal species for example, and you see the same thing! IMO, the biggest problem with the "womens movement" was this bad taste they left in everyones mouth about "Mother" being some kind of dirty word!
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Post by Olaf Balderson on Oct 31, 2001 1:55:55 GMT -5
Glad to find you back at last, Elric et al! You stated: "I dont think that because there was a womens movement, that traditional roles have/will change at all." One thing is for sure. I'm not the kind of father my father was, and my wife is not the kind of mother my mother was. I expect my sons to be more "motherly" fathers and my daughter tot be a more "fatherly" mother ... Roles did and do change, but very slowly. In my experience it is a matter of education. Higher educated people tend to be more critical about the roles they are expected to play.
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Post by Falkirk on Oct 31, 2001 9:05:32 GMT -5
Maigan, most of the areas you mention specifically are domestic. All the people still haven't changed all their ideas about domestic roles. And that's okay, so long as a husband and wife have discussed these things and come to an agreement about them before marriage. I think whatever arrangement two people have agreed to is fine, If one changes his/her mind after marriage, then renegotiation is called for. Of course, if they go into the marriage with a bunch of assumptions, then there will be problems.
On the larger issues, such as equal pay for equal work, and equal opportunities, I think those things are coming. Just like racism, those kinds of changes involve changing people's preconceived ideas, which doesn't happen overnight, or for that matter over a single generation. Take Elric, for example. ;D
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Post by Silmarillion on Oct 31, 2001 9:07:06 GMT -5
There are definitely still some sexist attitudes out there, but not *too* many.
In the line of work I used to be in (whitewater rafting guide, rock climbing guide, ski patrol), I encountered a few "sexist" bastards in my journeys. I will have to say though, that they were NOT the norm, but whenever it did happen, it baffled me to no end, and pissed me off usually as well.
There were a few times, when the trip leader for the river trip was assigning crews to guides, that the all male crew would REFUSE to have me as their guide because I was a woman. The trip leaders didn't like that attitude, but in an effort to "please the customer" would oblige them. Plus, why the hell would I want a boatload of sexist pigs anyway? ROFL But, I never understood it. I never understood exactly what it was that they thought the male guides could do that I couldn't. To this day, I don't understand it. But, the male guides that we worked with (and this is a male dominated industry) were ALWAYS very quick to jump to our defense. They knew our abilities and had a great respect for us. They knew the physical demands of the job, and they didn't cut us any slack for being women, they knew they didn't have to. And we, in turn, respected them because of that. The relationship between male and female riverguides is one that is very different from any other industry, I believe. I've yet to encounter such respect, closeness, and trust between the sexes in any other job.
When I first got into guiding, the company I chose to train with were sexist....much to my dismay. I wasted an entire summer training with these people, working for them for free, never knowing that they had NO intention of cutting loose a female guide. In the end, I was told I didn't "have what it took" to be a guide. Basically, I didn't have enough testosterone. LOL But, I pressed on with a different company with a different attitude and spit in the face of the first company at the launch off area for the Upper Gauley River. (one of the more difficult runs in the country)
I encountered injured people while working Ski Patrol, that didn't want me to "help" them because I was a woman. That didn't trust that *I* could get them off the mountain, being the "weaker sex". Nevermind my training and certifications....obviously I *must* have slept my way in there. ROFL
I will have to say though, that working in the business world now--for the first time--I've not encountered such attitudes. Do I get paid as much as I should? No, but I couldn't say that is because I am a woman. My boss is a woman, my supervisor is a woman, the head of the govt personnel that we are contracted with is a woman. I see no sexual discrimination in this office at all. Is it there? Possibly...but if it is, it's certainly not obvious. I don't feel as though I'm treated any differently than my male counterparts.
I think that in general, the business world has accepted that woman have brains. And that kind of discrimination is not as common as it is in other realms that are more physical. I agree, that generally the male gender is genetically stronger. However, that is not a rule. And I know, at least in the types of physical jobs that I've worked, that the women were NOT treated differently during training. We endured the same training, we passed the same tests, we weren't cut any slack or treated differently. Why? Because it would endanger lives.
Obviously, I wasn't around 50 years ago...but I think I can safely say that we've "come a long way, baby" towards equality. I feel no need to join up with any political women's group to press on about any issues. I don't see where anything else, politically, needs changing. (--except maybe some military issues--) The only thing that needs changed is the occassional attitude, but that comes from education....not from screaming and yelling, and lobbying for 'special' privileges. I have much disdain for the "fem-nazi's" because they DO NOT speak for me. I can speak for myself, thank you. And I think the radicals hurt the 'womens' cause more than help it. (as most radicals do). I think if everyone would just sit down and shut up about it (politically) for awhile, it would do a world of good.
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Post by Silmarillion on Oct 31, 2001 9:08:32 GMT -5
You know, this limit on the length of posts is annoying...LOL
As far as gender "roles".....those have been engraved into our psyche for many, many years. It will take quite some time to wipe those "roles" out completely. Hell, *I* do it myself. Not because I think I 'should' because I'm the woman, but just because it needs done.....so, I do it. I don't really see anything wrong with it. If that's the way your household runs and you are happy with that, then so be it. What I'm more concerned about is being *expected* to do certain things JUST because I'm the woman in the household. If I CHOOSE to, then I CHOOSE to. But, by no means, do I want the man in my life to EXPECT me to do anything "just because". There is no..."woman's work"....there's the work that *I* choose to do. And believe me, most of the men I've lived with couldn't fix a damn thing around the house. I've always taken care of fixing the toilet, programming the electronics, putting up the blinds, etc....etc. I just think that partners should complement one another. If that means "traditional" roles, then there's nothing wrong with that.
Okay, enough of me babbling on....LOL
hehe....I was just remembering how I taught a group of sexist jerks a lesson on the river once. ROFL You know, the last thing you want to do at the put in area for the Upper Gauley River is PISS OFF your river guide by insulting her gender. Talk about a bunch of fools...LOL. I made them beg for mercy!
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Post by ElricMorlockin on Oct 31, 2001 10:38:29 GMT -5
On the larger issues, such as equal pay for equal work, and equal opportunities, I think those things are coming. Just like racism, those kinds of changes involve changing people's preconceived ideas, which doesn't happen overnight, or for that matter over a single generation. Take Elric, for example. ;D Thats one helluva an off base assertion there Falkirk. If you want to know how EXACTLY I feel about women why dont you ask? I would wager that my view on women is much more honorable than you can imagine. Btw... we had this discussion on the old site so I will reaffirm what I see in REAL life. Women are in extremely prominent, high pay, high responsibility postions in about 4/5 of the companies that I do business with. They get paid the same or better than their male counterparts In my experience, for quite a number of reasons, which IMO some are good and some are not. Also racism? Heh, I hope since you used my name in the same paragraph you're not asserting that I am a racist too.
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Post by Falkirk on Oct 31, 2001 12:49:18 GMT -5
Just kidding you, Elric. That's why I put the smiley in there.
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Post by pedro2112 on Nov 1, 2001 0:17:50 GMT -5
When the hell are we going to get some decent avatars? Elric as the little imp and Falkirk as Tigger (fucking Tigger for crying out loud!) just aint gonna cut it! I just told my 3 year old this morning, "honey, it's time for breakfast, you can play with the Falkirk doll later."
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Post by Nachtrafe-Tyrant Jr on Nov 1, 2001 3:27:58 GMT -5
Hey Pedro..Try this. I have 300+ avatars on my site, and Sil has a bunch on hers. If none of those are to your liking, I have tons of of art on my puter. Give me an idea of what you're looking for and I will see what I have. I dont have a copy of your MH avatar(sorry) as I had just started saving those. Hope that helps.
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Post by Maigan on Nov 1, 2001 6:10:33 GMT -5
Pedro - isn't your avatar in use at PBG? If so do you not have a copy that someone can put on a website for you - or you could put on facelink?
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Post by ElricMorlockin on Nov 1, 2001 8:45:16 GMT -5
When the hell are we going to get some decent avatars? Elric as the little imp and Falkirk as Tigger (fucking Tigger for crying out loud!) just aint gonna cut it! I just told my 3 year old this morning, "honey, it's time for breakfast, you can play with the Falkirk doll later." LMAO!!!! Winnie the Poo and Falkirk too!!! Falkirk, my apologies, I had accidentally clicked the "disable smilies".... sorry again. Btw Pedro..... I think Fred Flintstone kinda fits ya...... ;D
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Post by pedro2112 on Nov 1, 2001 15:43:25 GMT -5
Btw Pedro..... I think Fred Flintstone kinda fits ya...... ;D I know, that is why I chose it! Actually, Ralph Kramden would have been more appropriate, but that wasn't available....
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Post by Falkirk on Nov 1, 2001 19:58:09 GMT -5
Aw, Tigger is my favorite Pooh character!
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