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Post by Diogenes on Oct 27, 2001 7:44:56 GMT -5
One unfortunate side effect of the current war, is that elements in our government are using the distraction to push through legislation quickly and without much public debate or scrutiny that in normal times they would not be able to get away with so easily.
An example is the so-called 100 billion dollar economic stimulus package which just passed the House (hopefully the damned thing will be held up or drastically revised in the Senate), which is really just a rampant give away program to big business. <br> Thoughts, comments?
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Alloriana
Slave
when walking the line between good and evil, balance is essential.
Posts: 18
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Post by Alloriana on Oct 27, 2001 17:50:24 GMT -5
I havent heard of this, gory details please?
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Post by Aradia on Oct 28, 2001 14:47:44 GMT -5
My gut reaction? It's awful. So many folks take advantage of troubled times, from the government all the way down to the common man. I recall the jacked up gas prices the day or so after the attacks....I mean really, what unscrupulous business owners came up with THAT idea?
Word has it that the anthrax scare across the US is actually domestic, and not another terrorist activity from abroad. Yet another group taking advantage of things while the nation is distracted.
As far as the government itself, I'm not surprised. Bush has the highest approval rating of any president in history *shudders and suddenly feels nauseated* simply because the American people are so horrified by what has happened that they rally around the president and the flag for lack of a better more constructive reaction. If we had elected Darth Vader as our President, the Americans would be rallying around him as well. It seems almost unpatriotic to question the gov't in this "time of war" and so most folks won't say a word. The gov't knows this. Is it wrong? Hell yes! But I'm not surprised. At least, my natural cynicism won't allow me to be surprised....
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Post by Kothoses the Tyrant on Oct 28, 2001 16:33:53 GMT -5
Such is the way of things people often engineer situations to their own advantage, especially in economical terms, your government could right now pass a bill declareing the SKy to be green and people would follow, we had a similar thing when the Labour government got elected back in not last time but the time bfore 6 or 7 years ago now I think it was.
The previous administration had made such a c**k up of things that even though the new lot were only average they looked so good that people loved them.
Now of course we are seeing the truth, though in terms of the whole War issue Tony Blair has shown his inherant leadership, to a degree, the real problem is that bush is not a natural leader, if september the 11th had never happened I wonder if peeps would follow him into a Pizza hut never mind a war.
So with his lack of leadership he allows his government to push him into things, and with the current climate, no one wants to argue with him they want to let him 'concentraite on the war effort' Admirable princable, misguided practise.
I am betting that right now 90% of americans cant Remember all the fuss of the Kyoto treaty, which bush led the americans to renegade on, the unfortunate side effect of all thats happened is that no one WANTS to see anything bad in Bush, they want the ideal war leader to figurehead the war on terror, so no one even bothers looking.......
I just hope that the cost of it all, in terms of your countrys growth econimics and such, is not a high one, the moral price has allready been payed but no one will notice it except for the few, who want to look.
Basically when this is over and the history books are written no one will remember these issues, it will be bush the great war leader, as it is now as it always has been and as it always will be History is written by the victor.
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Post by ElricMorlockin on Oct 30, 2001 8:12:23 GMT -5
I'm honestly not at all suprised, there are ghouls in any given situation! DIO!!!! Whats up hombre? Havent seen ya around in quite a while!!!!
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Post by pedro2112 on Oct 30, 2001 9:28:30 GMT -5
Aradia, regarding gas.... that was NOT done by any large companies. In fact, gas prices have dropped dramatically since the attacks, and even dropped in the few short days after the attack. It was some small time gas station owners, AND NOT the big oil companies that raised prices. Here in Illinois, the owners of several Casey's General Stores in southern Illinois jacked up prices overnight to almost $5 a gallon! That lasted only about 24 hours, and since then our Attorney General has started an investigation.
Also, Aradia, your paragraph about the president seems more like sour grapes than any rational analysis. President Bush's approval ratings are higher than even a "loved" president in a time of crisis (Roosevelt after Pearl Harbor).
Dio, your post makes it seem as if there is no logical or justifiable reason for the stimulus package that was just passed by the house. While I agree that it should have been drastically different, there is a large segment of the population, supported by numerous credible economists, who believe that the stimulus package is exactly what the country needs right now. Again, I disagree, but to suggest that someone is "taking advantage" is not supportable.
Frankly, it would be a significantly much better "stimulus" if they just accelerated the personal income tax cuts that were passed last year, but wont take effect until many years down the road. We need to put money into people's hands right now to spend. Consumer spending accounts for 2/3 of our economy, and giving some big companies big tax incentive to expand inventories and equipement purchases when they are already high is wrong... in addition, if you put money in peoples' hands to spend, THEN companies will start to expand, not the other way around.
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Post by pedro2112 on Oct 30, 2001 9:34:27 GMT -5
I am betting that right now 90% of americans cant Remember all the fuss of the Kyoto treaty, which bush led the americans to renegade on, the unfortunate side effect of all thats happened is that no one WANTS to see anything bad in Bush, they want the ideal war leader to figurehead the war on terror, so no one even bothers looking....... Kyoto was and is dead. When you exempt some of the largest net polluters on the globe (china, India, etc..) because it wouldn't be "fair" to include them, and when the scientists that performed the studies that the treaty is based on have come out and said the science does NOT support such a radical solution...and when EVERY SINGLE SENATOR IN THE US SENATE, FROM THE FAR RIGHT WING TO THE MOST LEFTIST ENVIRONMENTALIST voted unanimously that they would reject Kyoto if presented to them for ratification, then you will understand that what Bush did isn't anything other than state reality. That's all. By the way, the rejection of Kyto in for all practical purposes was done when Clinton was in the white house, not bush.
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Post by ElricMorlockin on Oct 30, 2001 9:46:17 GMT -5
As usual, great points Pedro! I'd add that US industries face the highest level of legislated "clean air, clean water" etc on the globe. Toxic waste makes headlines, and we have our fair share. However, we (USA) are NOT the largest polluters on the planet as has been asserted time and again. For those that dont know, the EPA and OSHA for that matter can literally shut down any company that they want to. Though its not a power they have yet abused, they do in fact have the power to do so.
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Post by Diogenes on Oct 30, 2001 10:30:07 GMT -5
If we had elected Darth Vader as our President, the Americans would be rallying around him as well. LOL! Too true! ;-)
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Post by Diogenes on Oct 30, 2001 10:32:13 GMT -5
I'm honestly not at all suprised, there are ghouls in any given situation! DIO!!!! Whats up hombre? Havent seen ya around in quite a while!!!! Heya. Heard about this new temp site set up by Aradia and Fonzie, and thought I would jump in for a bit.
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Post by Diogenes on Oct 30, 2001 10:37:20 GMT -5
Dio, your post makes it seem as if there is no logical or justifiable reason for the stimulus package that was just passed by the house. While I agree that it should have been drastically different, there is a large segment of the population, supported by numerous credible economists, who believe that the stimulus package is exactly what the country needs right now. Frankly, it would be a significantly much better "stimulus" if they just accelerated the personal income tax cuts that were passed last year, but wont take effect until many years down the road. We need to put money into people's hands right now to spend. Consumer spending accounts for 2/3 of our economy, and giving some big companies big tax incentive to expand inventories and equipement purchases when they are already high is wrong... in addition, if you put money in peoples' hands to spend, THEN companies will start to expand, not the other way around. I agree with everything quoted, Pedro. My post could have been worded better. <br> The problem with the "stimulus" package is that instead of being what it has been advertised, namely a true "stimulus" package which will really help the economy as a whole, it seems to be instead a poorly conceived, highly questionable, and very expensive corporate welfare program. The problem is not so much with a true "stimulous", the problem is with how this one is structured. <br> That is what is being pushed through so quickly.
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Post by Aradia on Oct 30, 2001 19:06:15 GMT -5
Aradia, regarding gas.... that was NOT done by any large companies. In fact, gas prices have dropped dramatically since the attacks, and even dropped in the few short days after the attack. It was some small time gas station owners, AND NOT the big oil companies that raised prices. Here in Illinois, the owners of several Casey's General Stores in southern Illinois jacked up prices overnight to almost $5 a gallon! That lasted only about 24 hours, and since then our Attorney General has started an investigation. Also, Aradia, your paragraph about the president seems more like sour grapes than any rational analysis. President Bush's approval ratings are higher than even a "loved" president in a time of crisis (Roosevelt after Pearl Harbor). Pedro, sorry if I left you with the idea that by "business owners" I meant huge corporations....I meant individual business owners of little gas stations all over the place, including podunk South Carolina out where I am. The gas prices went up about 30 cents a gallon here...then the next day it was 20 cents....then 10 cents...then back to normal. I still am pissed that anybody would take advantage of this crisis, individual business owners or anybody else. I was merely using that as an example of how folks take advantage of tragedy, and how awful it is. As for the other part...nope, no sour grapes here Although the Pearl Harbor attack is certainly the most comparable incident in the history of the US to the Sept. 11th terrorist attack, it still is not the same and you cannot compare the two. The September 11th attack was beyond the ability of the populace to fathom...using airplanes with innocent people on board to "bomb" the WTC....people stuck on floors as the building disintegrated, other people jumping to their certain death, hundreds of rescue workers caught in the crush of falling debris....and worse yet, a more effective media to display every graphic image and immediately convey it to all across America. When Pearl Harbor happened, the world was already at war, so the attack--although unexpected--was not out of what folks could think would happen. NOBODY thought this extreme form of terrorism would take place in the way that it did. We were not at war, nor was there a large scale war going on anywhere. I think that if Darth Vader were president when Pearl Harbor was bombed, he'd have gotten a high approval rating too. But I think that Darth Vader would have gotten an even higher approval rating after the terrorist attacks....*checks stats*...yep, looks like he did
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Post by pedro2112 on Oct 30, 2001 22:29:42 GMT -5
ActuallyAradia, you have to look at what the poll actually is asking. It isn't "do you like this guy" or "is he someone you'd want to fuck" or "is the guy the greatest thing since sliced bread".. it only asks "do you approve of the way the president is handling the situation." Regardless of what political philosophy one is, the fact of the matter is that Bush is doing what everyone wants him to be doing. He also gave some very good speeches, and did some very adept politiking (going to a mosque the day after, creating the new "home security" chief, etc..). So in one sense you are very correct. If Darth Vader did exactly what President Bush did, he would have the same approval level... on the other hand, Darth Vader wouldn't do what Bush did, so your analogy is pure speculation....
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Post by Feraess on Nov 5, 2001 8:08:09 GMT -5
Surely no sane individual would do what GBJ does. He might be popular in the US for standing up for the US, but the world celebrates that they don't have him as a leader, because he simply isn't very good at it. it is impossible to tell exactly which of the responses are due to him personally, but from the perspective of the rest of the world, he doesn't have a large choice of positive ones to claim as his own.
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Post by ElricMorlockin on Nov 5, 2001 10:39:12 GMT -5
Well Fearass, at least he is a leader that does something about what he's talking. I prefer action over "do nothing" any day of the week. Who cares what you think about our leader btw, or the "rest of the world" for that matter. You dont have to live here!
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