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Post by Diogenes on Oct 27, 2001 8:35:54 GMT -5
The US military is really big on propaganda about our precision strike capability, as they were in the Gulf War. Only after that war was over did the truth come out that 1) the so-called "smart" bombs weren't nearly so "smart" or accurate as had been claimed and 2) the vast majority of ordance dropped consisted of standard "dumb" bombs.
Now, this post is not about arguing whether the current bombing in Afghanistan is justified, but let's at least be honest about what we are doing, okay?
The local newspaper this morning reported that our planes had, again, bombed the Red Cross center in Kabul "inadvertently." Occasionally, reports filter out regarding "inadvertent" bombings of civilian dwellings. Now, these reflect only a very few instances where sources considered reliable by the West are on hand to witness it themselves, out of a much wider war. It leads to the conclusion that this air campaign is just as sloppy and messy as any in the past.
Let's be honest, here, people. The idea of a precision, civilian friendly air campaign is false propaganda. War is far messier, sloppier, and uglier than that. <br> Thoughts, comments, flames?
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MasterD_Evil
Peasant
The things we do to the people that we love...
Posts: 50
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Post by MasterD_Evil on Oct 27, 2001 8:42:43 GMT -5
War's a mess, that's a fact. Take the averages of the Taliban and the Western reports on civilian casualties and the real number is probably somewhere in the middle.
Those precision boms are assumably a lot more expensive and iirc, weren't many of those only first created during the Gulf War? Let's compare it to Windows: The first versions were junk compared to what Windows can do now, but they're still filled with bugs...
If there's a lone Red Cross camp out of direct contact with the rest of the world, and they bomb it and everybody's dead... then who's gonna report it?
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Alloriana
Slave
when walking the line between good and evil, balance is essential.
Posts: 18
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Post by Alloriana on Oct 27, 2001 17:59:09 GMT -5
I have no doubts that we are in fact taking out major sections of the people we are supposedly dropping aid packages to as well. The TRUE innocents, the children who dont even know yet that there is a group called the Taliban who are running the place that they live in, the poor working joes and their wives who had no say in the Taliban taking over WITH OUR HELP.
This war needs to go IMO from air to ground, from bombing the cities to leveling the mountains where the terrorists are supposedly hiding.
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Post by Nightcrawler on Oct 27, 2001 18:15:09 GMT -5
The problem with a real ground campaign is that the people we're fighting are insane, and the terrain is less than ideal. I just read today that thousands of Pakistanis are packing up to defend against any ground incursions by American troops. These people are calling this a Holy War, claiming that we're waging war against Islam. That's insanity. We're fighting terrorism, not any religion.
It's basically a decision of American soldier casualties that we'd suffer from a ground campaign versus Afghan civilian casualties from an air campaign. Personally, I'd lean towards American casualties because they have a purpose in dying while civilians do not.
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Zoras
Minion
Burn with the Dragon's soul
Posts: 203
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Post by Zoras on Oct 27, 2001 20:32:30 GMT -5
I heard that the US military is now intending to use cluster bombs on Afghanistan. For those who don't know, cluster bombs are bombs dropped from planes that have a 'scatter' payload. After dropping, they break up into several smaller projectiles which may or may not explode on impact. Those that are unexploded will lie on the ground like mines. They are normally brightly colored to warn off people from stepping on them accidentally (since use of hidden mines against ground personnel I believe is now forbidden by the Geneva Convention) but considering that there are still ignorant civilians in Afghanistan, and children who may be attracted to the bright colors, these cluster bombs may end up harming the wrong people.
A continued air assault is not going to do the job anymore. They've done what they can, and now its time for the ground forces to move in. I fear it will be costly for US troops, considering the terrain and fanaticism of the Taliban, but at least on the ground they can be more disciminating.
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Alloriana
Slave
when walking the line between good and evil, balance is essential.
Posts: 18
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Post by Alloriana on Oct 27, 2001 23:09:38 GMT -5
How many bombs does it take to level a mountain full of cave systems?
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Post by Spelman on Oct 28, 2001 1:23:57 GMT -5
I wouldn't usually intrude on a discussion of war...maybe I still shouldn't, but here goes. War sucks, there is no denying. Innocents get hurt and/or killed...usually in large numbers. What is and is not a wartime atrocity is decided by the winner, and the list of why we, as a people, do not like it at all, goes ever on. To swipe a phrase from Pedro (where the **** is he?) Dio dictates:The idea of a precision, civilian friendly air campaign is false propaganda. War is far messier, sloppier, and uglier than that. All war is messy, horrific, terrifying and cruel...but sometimes necessary. The choice is: do you want to get into a war, or not? Does the situation warrent such extreme measures? And if it does, resolve to do it, and then do it. We here in the USA spend way too much time trying to come up with the "good" way for everything. The only "good" way for a war is to not have one...I mean, how can you "kindly kill?" And, by the same token, what makes anyone think that you can have a war where innocents do not die? This is not a sport. Sorry if this offends. I don't like it either. But, I think, it is the truth.
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Post by pedro2112 on Oct 28, 2001 21:06:56 GMT -5
Several facts:
1) war is hell 2) innocent people die 3) if you don't use overwhelming force and finish the war as quickly as possible, then you prolong the agony 4) our bombs are SIGNIFICANTLY "smarter" than they were ten years ago. Only about 30% in the gulf war were "smart".. while in this war 80% are smart. We also now have GPS guided bombs, making even the dumb ones pretty smart. 5) Notwithstanding the above, bombs do go astray and miss their targets. Unfortunately, the Taliban like to put military targets next to hospitals, mosques, childrens centers, etc..so the "misses" usually end up killing non-combatants. 6) don't believe everything you read
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Post by Nachtrafe-Tyrant Jr on Oct 28, 2001 23:21:16 GMT -5
Pedro made several great points so I wont rehash those. But there are a couple of other things that should be responded to.
1: Alloriana...Just a clarification. We did NOT assist the Taliban in their rise to power. The Taliban, as an organization did not exist until the 90's. Before that, individual members were part of the Mujahadeen(sp), the Afghani freedom fighters that the US trained and aided in repulsing the Soviets. After that war, the Afghani had a civil war(well, actually, they had several). The Taliban grew out of those civil wars, recruited, trained, and overthrew/killed/routed out the legitimate government of Afghanistan in the mid 90's.
2: Nightcrawler!!! How can you possibly say that the lives of American Soldiers are worth less than that of Afghani Civilians?! Human life has no cost. It is just as tragic for an American Soldier to die as it is for an Afghani to die. Yes, the American soldiers DO serve a purpose...KILLING THE ENEMY!!! Not dying so that a few Afghani civilians get to live!
Remember Milamber? He has a pretty profound quote on his Sig over at IW: "War is not about dying for your country. Its about making sure the other bastard dies for his." Gen George Patton.
3: Alloriana Shrilled: "How many bombs does it take to level a mountain full of cave systems?"
As many as it takes. Until the bastards living in them either give up or die!
4:Sort of in correlation with Pedro's 5th point. Confirmed reports are on NPR and the AP wire that the Taliban are now setting up military targets IN civilian buildings. They have ammo dumps in hospitals and SAM's in schools.
Finally...I agree...War SUCKS! People, the guilty AND the innocent die. But, lest we all forget, there are already 5000+ US casualties. Innocents that made the simple mistake of going to work on time on a Tuesday morning. So before you begin wailing about Afghani innocents, remember the US innocents.
*Tosses 2 pennies on the table and walks out*
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Post by Nightcrawler on Oct 29, 2001 0:27:51 GMT -5
2: Nightcrawler!!! How can you possibly say that the lives of American Soldiers are worth less than that of Afghani Civilians?! Human life has no cost. It is just as tragic for an American Soldier to die as it is for an Afghani to die. Yes, the American soldiers DO serve a purpose...KILLING THE ENEMY!!! Not dying so that a few Afghani civilians get to live! I'm not saying their lives are worth less. I'm saying that since they have made a conscious decision to put their lives on the line, their deaths are more justified than the deaths of civilians who have no active role in the war/conflict.
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Post by Kothoses the Tyrant on Oct 29, 2001 3:18:44 GMT -5
I just hope that the International Coalition (isnt that a nice word for several countries that want to help each other go kill on a mass scale) dont turn this into another Vietnam, I say this because the US Bombed and Napalmed that country into oblivion, when a Swift deadly land strike would have had much more effect.
War is far more about Propaganda than actualy casualties in determineing a winner, this is after all the information age we live in, its all too easy to write air strikes off without a twinge of conciense, because you never see the faces of people who die.
The fact is no matter how good the technology, no matter how precise we are lead to believe these 'smart' bombs are, there will always be mistakes, are these acceptable? ever? hell no.
But such is a war, we have a war people die, many more will die as a result of this campaign and ultimatly --as with any conflict like this in history-- the only winner will be death.
I just hope that we dont all get so caught up in a quest for justice over those that died, that we cant feel sadness at innocent lives that have, and will be, lost.
In the quest for justice, just remember not to lose touch with what keeps you human, dont sell your souls to buy vengance for what has been lost.
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Post by Spelman on Oct 29, 2001 4:36:22 GMT -5
I just hope that the International Coalition (isnt that a nice word for several countries that want to help each other go kill on a mass scale) dont turn this into another Vietnam, I say this because the US Bombed and Napalmed that country into oblivion, when a Swift deadly land strike would have had much more effect. Well, we wanted "Righteously Organized Mofo of an Empire" but calling it ROME for short freaked a lot of people out! Actually I agree with the idea of avoiding a "police action" at all costs. We did not send cops over there we sent the military. We should continue to treat this as a war and not a political convention. I am sorry that innocents will be hurt...but at least they had a warning time of over a month. How much notice was given to the people in the WTC? Or the USA in general? Poking a grizzley with a stick is a dumb-a$$ approach if you don't want anyone hurt.
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Lord Bane
Peasant
D?faitiste Extraordinaire
Posts: 63
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Post by Lord Bane on Oct 29, 2001 6:46:11 GMT -5
Heh, don't think we had covered this one already, did we Pedro ? Actually, I've already explained my opinion on this war (and the bombings) in detail at MH, and have no intention for repeating it all. Just one remark, Spelman, the Taliban aren't the ones caring for how many Afghani're dying. On the contrary, for every dead civilian their support grows (just watch the Pakistani you mentioned), and every dead soldier is a new martyr. A final note, I've been hearing reports of bombs landing in the middle of NA-occupied land. Don't think the Taliban have any military strongholds in there.
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Zoras
Minion
Burn with the Dragon's soul
Posts: 203
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Post by Zoras on Oct 30, 2001 4:39:00 GMT -5
I just hope that we dont all get so caught up in a quest for justice over those that died, that we cant feel sadness at innocent lives that have, and will be, lost. In the quest for justice, just remember not to lose touch with what keeps you human, dont sell your souls to buy vengance for what has been lost. Amen bro. I heard that the ground war has officially begun, and that thousands of Islamic extremists are crowding the borders of Pakistan/Afghanistan, demanding to be let through to join their fellow Muslims in fighting the US oppressors. I wish there were only a way that all the civilians could leave and all these deluded militants could come in so they'd see just what war is really about...
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Post by ElricMorlockin on Oct 30, 2001 8:20:51 GMT -5
DIO! All propoganda aside, it only makes sense that the majority of the ordenance dropped in Iraq was the "standard" or "dumb bombs". You have to remember that the fighter/bomber is a tactical "take out the bunker" designed aircraft whereas the B-52 is more stategic "take out the countryside"! In my mind it would only take a few B-52 strikes to more than equal the sorties of say our F16 and F18 fighter bombers. Its only a matter of sheer "firepower". In truth, the Republican Guard got quite a taste of the devestating power of the B-52 strike. Propoganda! Absolutely! You gotta remember Dio that our beloved news media seems to have the attitude that our right to know supercedes our right to exist! Sadam Hussein gleaned more from the news gerbils, trying to "out do" one another than he did from his own intelligence sources. With that said, if you were an intelligent commander wouldnt you use propoganda that you "know" the enemy is going to continue to see?
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